Sessions is the podcast for growth-stage founders, COOs, and leadership teams ready to stop spinning and start building with clarity.
Each episode is a “Session,” an intentional break from the daily chaos to work on the business, not just in it. Hosted by Benj and McKenzie from System & Soul, this show blends practical frameworks with human insight, offering conversations that are honest, strategic, and soul-centred.
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Do vision and culture belong in a different category?
Involvement vs. decision-making
Arthur Brooks on fluid vs. crystallized intelligence
From managers to leaders
Benj Miller:
Hey everybody. Welcome back for a new episode of Sessions, and this is one of our favorite sessions where we throw up a hot take and get the other person's reaction. We have no idea what's coming. I'm excited for this one. I'm either going to get a dud or an offensive reaction. So one of the one, one or the other. We're gonna get it here with Mackenzie Decker, my partner in crime and co-host of the show. Mackenzie, how you feeling? You ready for this?
McKenzie Decker:
Right now I'm feeling like it's gonna be some passive aggressive feedback or something, hoping that's, oh
Benj Miller:
no, it's actually no. It's a take on. It's a take on the CEO. And so I'm gonna get your COO POV and your reaction true or false, to a very declarative statement. So you ready for it?
McKenzie Decker:
Absolutely.
Benj Miller:
Alright, let's go.
McKenzie Decker:
And by absolutely, being a very type A person, I wish I had like several hours to prepare, but here we are.
Benj Miller:
One of them is hire and five, the management team. Two is set the vision for the company. Three is set the culture for the company, and four is basically resource allocation where you put the dollars in the bets. And those four things are the most important. And I go back to that article probably every single year to remind myself and look at my diary and say, how much of my time am I spending on those four areas? Did you catch that?
McKenzie Decker:
Hire fire. The management team set the vision for the company, allocate resources. What was the fourth one?
Benj Miller:
Oh gosh. Pretty sure it was culture.
McKenzie Decker:
Culture, that's right. I agree with 50% of that.
Benj Miller:
Oh, yes. Okay. Talk that out.
McKenzie Decker:
Okay. So I would split these into two categories. So I would put vision and culture in one category, and I would put the hiring, firing, and the resourcing in another. The reason I would do that is there's a stratosphere that vision and culture lives in. That is a job in and of itself to set that vision, to communicate that vision, to remind people of that vision, to help other people come into that vision, to maintain the culture and communicate, to be the champion of the culture. That's a, I see that as a job in and of itself. I think when that person, and generally I would say there's. There is a type of person who's, that's a genius of theirs. Like they get it, they wanna live it and breathe it and exist in it and help other people understand it. The other, I think there's an entirely different set of skills, an entirely different mindset, an entirely different pool of information that person would need in order to do the other one, which is the higher fire and resource allocation that person is. If we're in the stratosphere of vision and culture, that person's down here in the weeds trying to understand how the numbers have shifted. How have the conversion rates shifted? How have the, what is everybody working on a weekly and quarterly basis like.
Benj Miller:
Yeah, but
McKenzie Decker:
there's an entirely different skillset, entirely different personality and genius that comes for those two things, for those two buckets that I put them in. And I think generally, like someone, a person can conceivably do both of those things, but. There's likely gonna be one side of that, one of those buckets that is not natural for them, that is not life giving for them. I'm talking about like their life and job satisfaction. But there's also a an organizational impact if that person really isn't, they're not really wired for being in the weeds or they're not really wired for understanding all of the resource allocation. And the people management side. So that's my opinion on it. What are you smiling?
Benj Miller:
I'm smiling because it's I'm glad we did this because what's sticking out to me is like our lenses to what we hear is, are even different because when I hear that through that context about the CEO, when he says hire and fire, I'm thinking only about the senior leadership team. Because of course, I don't want to do anything below that. I don't want to think about that. I'm not the one to do that. Shouldn't be the one to do that. But I really care about who's on that senior leadership team. And then the resell source allocation, like the only thing in my mind was tied to the bets we're making. So where do, where does the. Let's call it discretionary income, whether it's, the money we're putting to RD or growth or whatever it is that the allocation of that becomes really important, the, because it's tied to the strategic bets that we're making as an organization. So I was just laughing because like I agree with everything you said, but that's not even like the lens that I heard what he was saying.
McKenzie Decker:
No, that's, yeah, that's in that case. In that case, I do think, I'm trying to decide if I agree with you or not. You're completely right. And I do, but I do wonder if some of this is like a little bit of a sliding scale, like for either organizational size and maturity or
Benj Miller:
always. Yeah.
McKenzie Decker:
Yeah. There's something that I'm like, that's true. If. I don't think that there's a point where if that person's getting, you talked about resource allocation at the highest level. You talked about hiring and firing at the highest level, but at some point the highest level is it impacts the lowest. And so if that person is making those decisions and doesn't understand the lower levels than like it's disconnected. And so that's why when I talk about it like that being a job in and of itself, I think for a person to really have. The full context of. The decision they're making at some point, like maybe those four things are true for a CEO and a certain size of business maybe, or like a certain stage. But then you're gonna get to a point where you really need someone to manage that. Differently, if that makes sense.
Benj Miller:
Yeah. I think that it's not necessarily even doing it and managing it, it's like those are the things that A CEO should always be involved in. And again, this is, it is relative to the size, hire, when you have six people in your company and you hire a seventh person, it's really critical who they are and like, getting that for the culture. The holistic culture. When you have 70 people and you're hiring 71, then they've really gotta fit the skill and the team that they're on. They need to fit the culture. But like the CEO does not need to hire the 71st person in the organization. So it is relative. But I also don't think any of those four the CEO should do in a vacuum. I think that's why you have a leadership team and they might be spending the time. Thinking about it.'cause the other people have, they're, they are more in the weeds, but they should spend their time and energy thinking about those four things.
McKenzie Decker:
I think that's important, what you just said, and you used the word like, they need to be involved with all those four things. I fully agree with that. The involved is different than being the end decision maker though. So that leader, I think if they're involved in those four things, especially as an organization, sales, they have to be, they can be involved, but they need to be, their involvement should be empowering the leader.
Benj Miller:
Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah.
McKenzie Decker:
But they should be empowering that team.'Cause I think what can happen is we, it can get too tactical where that person never really gives up. The decision making rights for something at that lower level, and they're playing at the higher level most of the time, but then they jump down and they disrupt the team without I. Yeah. Yeah. So I think when we say involved, it's involved is your role goes from being the primary yes or no person to helping the people that you've empowered to lead their teams to manage effectively.
Benj Miller:
Yep. Cool. All right. What'd you bring? I'm glad I asked 'cause I, I had no idea how you'd react to that.
McKenzie Decker:
Okay. So I brought a clip from one of your favorite people to hear, talk about literally anything. I'll let you watch this clip and then, before about the age of 40, they have a lot of what's called fluid intelligence. That's working memory. That's the ability to focus problem solving. So if you're smart and hardworking, it makes you good at what you do on your own. So anybody in their 40, they're great at what they do as an individual. That's fluid intelligence. Okay. That peaks at about age 39. That's what explains burnout. People tend to burn out in their mid forties because what used to be. Easy now is hard, but used to be hard. Now it feels impossible, and you get tired of actually not making progress. And so people tend to think I guess I just don't like it anymore. And they try to keep up with what they once were good at and what the young people still are, and it's very depressing for them. Now, here's the thing to understand that fluid intelligence does decline, but there's another kind of intelligence called crystallized intelligence that comes in behind it that rises astronomically through your forties and fifties, stays high in your sixties, seventies, and eighties and beyond. God gives you your marbles that long crystallized intelligence is not about innovation per se. It's not about working memory. It's not about indefatigable focus. It's about teaching ability, pattern recognition, coaching and mentoring. That's where you get really good at. Why? Because you have a huge library in your head and you know how to use it. You'll be faster at doing things you know how to do in your thirties. You'll be better at doing things you've never seen in your fifties. Because one is fluid, you'll just crystallize intelligence. So be the innovator when you're 30. Be the instructor when you're 60.
Benj Miller:
I don't know if it's a hot take 'cause anything Arthur Brooks says is just fact. This is, that's cool though. I've never heard that. I
McKenzie Decker:
know, yeah. I dunno that it's, I, when I picked it, I'm like, I think you'll resonate with this. I don't think that there's any kind of like contrarian point of view in that, but I want, I wanted you to, from what I know of you, there is a passion about this subject in a way, especially when it comes from moving from like a founder to a leader. I just thought I would set you up to share your point of view.
Benj Miller:
The first thing that comes to mind is I'm like, oh, no wonder I feel incompetent trying to do some things that I could do when I was 32. And like, why does it feel harder and feel like it takes longer? So that, that part of it's interesting. But I'm in this. Phase of life where I love coaching. And it's worth saying that from that point of view it's not, I don't see coaching as like I've learned it all. So I need to go and give all my wisdom away. I do have some reps. I do know some things, but I also like love learning and. I think coaching forces you to be continually in that game, and I think that is the crystallization of the things that you see, the things that you've learned. I, between John Richie quotes that I quote in every single episode, or a mental model or a tool that we have, these are all things that have crystallized to form a worldview and a perspective on how you do business and how you lead and all those things coming together. So I can see that I'm gonna, I'm gonna maybe this is one of those things that once you. See, red cars, red cars everywhere. So I'm gonna be looking for that this week.
McKenzie Decker:
I think it's confirmation bias. What
Benj Miller:
What was the big thing that sparked for you when you heard that?
McKenzie Decker:
And I don't know if. I mean there is, I went and looked up 'cause I am who I am. I'm like, is this real science? And it's there's sorry. No, it's not real science. It is a scientific principle. So there is a construct here that's helpful. And there's also a bunch of other types of intelligence too. These aren't the only two. So challenge to go look that up and educate yourself. I liked the paradigm because I think. It helps explain a lot of what I think we've articulated when it comes to going from founder mode to leader mode, we talk about it a lot in our book renegades. And I think the age piece is interesting. Like we didn't really account for that piece. And the way that we talk about going from moving from being a founder to being a leader, and I don't know how, I don't know how like true the, before 40, after 40 piece is. Yeah. But I think, I thought, I'm like, this is probably, this is helpful for any of the business leaders, people, leaders that watch our show, pay attention to what we're doing here because I think we're constantly trying to, I think we're trying to understand how we can be most effective at the stage that we're in. And. I think that there is a call to constantly move towards like the empowering of other people. Like what we just talked about, some of your video, paired well with this in a way that I didn't expect, but where we go from being the end decision person, the
Benj Miller:
practitioner the
McKenzie Decker:
fluid intelligence person, the person that can solve the problem and jump in and figure it out, whatever innovate to being the person who's involved, but they're coaching the person who's mentoring the person who's instructing. And so I think I thought this was a good reminder and maybe a helpful paradigm for everybody who's on that journey.
Benj Miller:
Yep.
McKenzie Decker:
Yeah. Very
Benj Miller:
cool.
McKenzie Decker:
This has been, sorry. This has been something, oh,
Benj Miller:
this has been a thing.
McKenzie Decker:
No, this is fun. Actually, let me ask you one more thing about this before we go. So I don't know if it's relative to age or just stage of where somebody is with this kind of concept. What do you, what would you say to the business leader who is maybe they're 45 and they're like, I can't move into Crystallize, I can't allow myself into this mode. Like, how do you. How would you address that?
Benj Miller:
Here's what I'm wondering is when you crystallize the good, do you also crystallize at a state of time? Because I'm thinking about my peer group and I'm the youngest guy in my peer group. I'm 47. They're all mid fifties, late fifties, sixties. And it's funny to watch them have a conversation about ai.'cause it's all like theory. I'm like, wait, you guys aren't using this? You haven't built stuff, you haven't, built prompts, you haven't built automations. And they're so I wonder if the crystallization can also crystallize a point in time without the flexibility to be fluid in your thinking and your strategy and your use of new technology. And that be, something that we really do need to watch out for, because. We're, we are leading people that have fluid intelligence and we wanna make sure that we're leveraging that.
McKenzie Decker:
That's a good point. Thanks for sharing your hot take with me. I'm sure we'll find some more videos over the next few weeks to taunt and bother each other with. But I look forward to, I look forward to our next session. This session is produced by fist Bumps. This Bumps is our partner and producing great content. If that's something you need help with, you've got a lot to share or you're not sure what you have to share, but you're doing great work. They can help you figure out how to communicate it effectively. Get fist bump.com. Thanks for joining us today. We will see you next week for another episode of Sessions.
